If what you’re making doesn’t light you up, it’s unlikely to do the same for others. That’s among the tenets that fuel Paul Macauley’s creativity along with his messaging.
Paul is a writer, performer, and creator. He also coaches people who need help in their own creative practices. In his discussion with Mark, he dives into the process behind his own creative output, which puts authenticity at the centre.
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Clearly the reception's been good and clearly I've be doing a good enough job of uh, doubting that about if, if, if it's landed in your consciousness. So thank you for being aware.
You're listening to Ear Brain Heart, an experiment in showing up. I'm Mark Steadman and I'm equal parts interested in the process and the squishy stuff behind creativity. Helping me dig into both his writer, performer and creative coach, Paul McCauley.
I was made aware of Paul's work by former Ear Brain Heart guest, Francis Khalastchi, and instantly fell in love with his take on the 100 sketch format that has become so popular on TikTok. You know the thing, one person plays two characters going back and forth and having a conversation.
But Paul's work spans far, far beyond a few funny, all be insightful YouTube videos, which we talk about and you'll find linked in the show notes. When I chatted to him, he'd not long come off a run of dates at the Brighton Fringe Festival, so we got talking about his show, My Heart is a Spark.
it's an autobiographical show about grief and loss sounds very heavy, but ultimately it's about hope and finding joy. When life gives you lemons, how do you bounce back? And it's based on my experiences, a period of my life where I lost my mother very suddenly, and my relationship fell apart and it was all a bit of a dissent into what's going on? And I was very interested about that process and finding a way to talk about that in, yeah, in a way that sort of shared that and shared some of the, I dunno, the things that I felt and learned within that.
And my practice is I call myself a writer and a maker as a creative which is of a, quite a casual descriptor, which kind of captures the fact that everything I do seems to have a root in writing in some way, even E either as an end in itself or as a step along the way to performance, for example. Like this show or I've written and directed theater, done a bit of filmmaking and stuff like that. But that, that's what I've spent the last couple of months doing that show and that's been a real pleasure because it's doing live performance obviously has been something that's not been an option for a couple of years. And it felt like a real return to doing something I love doing, being in a room with people and also pleased with the quality of it and the fact that it's feels very authentically my story, and was a little bit scary to put out there in some ways, but I feel like that's, I've I feel like I, for myself set a new standard of oh, that's how you show up when you make something. So that feels exciting.
I am really, I'm interested in how very quickly it seemed like having watched your YouTube stuff, how very quickly your voice comes across. And I'm interested in like how that, does that translate into the theater space, and are you conscious of that? Like the way that you, I guess it's, it's a combination of the writing and your performance. And obviously when it comes to YouTube, there's a bit of editing as well there, but it seems like your voice comes across very quickly. It's like you, you can identify a Paul thing quite easily.
Yeah, it is an interesting question. And I do think the experience I've had in creating work in other forms definitely, and the lessons learned there, definitely come have come through into this sort of nascent sort of emerging YouTubery that I'm involved in.
I think the foundation of it always is just drive towards authenticity. And that's true in stuff I create in terms of like theater or whatever. It's what's really my story? What am I really interested? have I was really brave and just, through caution to the wind and just said what I really thought and felt in the most compelling way I can find?
So there's that. And I think like in terms of marketing or whatever, like in terms of talking around creative practice, which is I guess what the YouTube thing is circling around, and that's what I'm interested in supporting people with, in terms of my coaching offer, you know, work with creatives to create the work that they love to create. That authenticity thing feels like a necessary part of it.
I guess I realized a few things I started the YouTube thing only this year. And it, it's felt like a, a a steep learning curve and So I, I kind of realized that very quickly. It's like, oh well, you know, I've been trying lots of different things in terms of like video making and seeing that okay, I'll try thing like they're doing over there. Oh, I did that. That does not feel right. That doesn't fit me. uh, Yeah and you know that. So one of the things like the whole idea of positioning myself as, a general expert and talking about things in a very abstract way, it's like, I, I can't do that. I can't, it doesn't feel right. So there's something about rooting how I'm talking about it in my experience, and in a way that actually feels. Meaningful or present for me if that makes sense.
And rooting it in story as well. I feel like it's not just about, I'm gonna sit here. Like none of them are I'm gonna sit here and, and tell you what I think about a particular thing. It's there is a narrative element, whether it's the video that you recorded about sobriety, or then the creative helpline stuff, which I really wanna get into, the, the story aspect, I guess, gives you the license then to almost step away and not have to position yourself as the expert, but almost be able to perform in a very different way and to, to get the same expertise across, but not be a lecture.
Yeah. That's yeah. Narrative story. And I suppose everything that I've done has got some narrative. And I think in narrative terms, you know, I, I don't think necessarily visually so much as a story over time and you know, so that that sort of conceit being the sort of cradle for being able to go well, this is just how I see it and how I experience it. And I'm not saying that this is what you should be thinking or how, how you should be feeling about something.
And it's it's that empathy, empathy piece, isn't it? And I really appreciated that quite a lot, doing this show recently. Like, you know, I, I, I went very bold. towards being telling a very honest story in the sort of fullest way I could. And I was very mindful of, like, so show talking about universal things like grief and loss, and everyone has, or, and will have their experience of that. And it doesn't feel right to say this is what it is, because everyone's gonna have their own journey. But you know, what you can say is this is what happened for me. And it's that thing, isn't it like the more specific you are about your lived experience of something weirdly, the more universal. The resonance is for other people and other people can find themselves in that.
And there's also this thing about when you sort of really show up with authenticity and a willingness to talk about your experience and your perspective and how that feels, then there's something. It's an invitation, right? It's an invitation to people go. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well You get it, I can relate to you and maybe trust you and that kind of thing. And also it it neatly side steps the thing of the imposter syndrome thing I'm not the foremost expert on anything, but I am the foremost expert on me.
And your take on it.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the bundle of stuff that I've gathered to figure out the problems that feel meaningful for me to solve. And that's irrefutable, isn't it? You know, if you, find your ground and, and speak from there, then no one can say that's not true. And that's really liberating and quite empowering and, and, and a very confident place to speak from, especially when you venture being brave to speak from that place and you see it lands with other people, you go, oh my god, that's the whole trick. I just do my bit and I'm honest about it, and then and then there's something in it for other people as well.
but also I think unselfish as well because I, I wanna get into some process specifically around the two creatives helpline videos, but there is a notable lack of a pitch in, in, in both of those videos, which I appreciate a lot because, we've gone to the same marketing school in some respects, so there's things there that we understand, but the yeah the fact that you can deliver value in what you are doing and be genuinely helpful, whether it's helping people understand about imposter syndrome or, I mean, the first one I saw which made me properly laugh out loud, which no other sort of video of its kind has done is the one on productivity. And to just for that to be the thing and to have the. I don't know necessarily the confidence, but the openness, the sense of abundance to sort of say, and the people with whom that resonates most will find me and we can potentially work together. I don't have to have a sales pitch at the end of it.
Yeah, that's one of the things definitely. I thought about a lot on, and I suppose you and I both interested in, you know, how do we talk about what we're trying to do and what we have that can help other people in a way that feels intrinsically valuable and is not just a step towards getting someone to, to sign up for something. And I think about that a lot and I just think. I mean, I know for myself, right? If something salesy, it just turns me off. You know, I I'll find the thing when I'm ready to find the thing. So I think one important sort of criteria for making stuff's gotta be, is intrinsically valuable. It's like it is worth something in its own right.
And I do like the idea, and this is definitely sort of influenced by some of the input and thinking that, you know, we will have encountered through Better Older Braver, but that whole idea of taking the long view of it is like a relationship. And, you know, the, the people I love to follow on like YouTube, but like just show up and make good stuff. And then I trust them and they make good stuff. And the other thing I realized apart from it needing to be intrinsically valuable is unless it's genuinely interesting for me to make, I, I can't, I can't phone it in and I, and I sometimes wonder if this is a liberation, because if I don't care, I can't pretend otherwise.
That's the other side of the coin of authenticity though, isn't it? Because if you're going to show up with authenticity, then that also means those moments where if it doesn't feel authentic, then you can't show up.
So I've actually had a pause from making videos for the last sort of six, eight weeks since I've been doing this show and that's taken up all of my sort of head space and I'm ready to go back to it. And I know that I'm not gonna go back to it in quite the same way. And I'm trying to sift well, what Is working and what is not? And what do I want to try out next?
One of the lessons I learned in this sort of earlier part of the year, was it, is that thing I've got to enjoy it. I've got to enjoy the process. There's something about being mindful of how what I'm creating has got an identifiable hook or way in that other people might value, but unless it's rooted in something that I'm feeling that I want to express or understand, then there's no point because. It's just me making stuff to feed the machine.
So actually what, one of the things I've landed on is that it's all part of my, like my creative practice and it needs to be interesting to me. Because actually what, you know what my it's you are engaged in working in a form and with the quality of way of working, that's important to you. And the very active you doing it, models that's a possibility and gives, you know, you are showing up, you've created the thing that is the vehicle for you to be able to create and engage in the way you want to. And I think people sniff a inauthenticity out straight away and it's just a real turnoff. Plus you get bored, right?
Alright. Let's do this process because the thing that really struck me is if we look at those creatives helpline videos, and I think, I think this is useful. It's not just me nerding out because I think there's some useful stuff here that wouldn't occur to many people. And I think it's something that you possibly learn from traditional media.
So one of the things in my, in my uh, business, I'm always trying to help people understand is that when you are talking on Mike if you are in someone's ears, you refer to people in the singular, there's lots of reasons and all that stuff, but that's something that comes from old, the oldest of radio, almost right from the beginning is this understanding that you talk to a single person. So there are lots of things. Yes, we are working in new media, but there are fundamental things that translate. And the thing that I noticed, which I was fascinated, but cause one of the things I was like, I was trying to figure out there is someone else who I know who I'm connected with, who makes videos and they're polished in terms of production, quality, but lack, there's like an uncanny valley thing. And it's this, it's a similar kind of format where you are being two sides of a conversation and recording both sides. But the thing that I figured out where I was trying to go, why do I connect with Paul's videos and not the, these other ones? And part of it is very much the writing and the performance, that makes it, that makes a big difference, but there's also the simplest thing in the world is that you signaled that you were talking to another person in another location simply by putting on a pair of earbuds. And the other person on the other end of the call is also doing the same. That is the thing that, that it's that understanding of you have to justify the conversation, otherwise the brain is sitting there. It's not able to fully connect because it can't understand how the thing is possible. And so you can never quite settle. Does that make sense? And is that something that was conscious?
Do you know what? I think it came out of a conversation I had with Laura Mubridge who directed My Heart is a Spark. necessary about something and she said thank you for calling creative support or something like that. And I thought well, that's it, interesting. You know, What, if there was a number that you could call when you are having a meltdown in whatever way that was?
So yeah, I mean, that's like a, a simple conceit. And you know, there are things I sort of watch on online. I really love Julie Nolke, I dunno if you've ever watched her. She blew up during the pandemic. And I think that is built into what she does. She does lots of skits, sketches, and one of the things that uh, she did a video during the pandemic where she explained the pandemic to her past self who hadn't encountered it yet. And it was just this tension of like, oh, you dunno, what's coming down anyway, but it's she comes up with these wonderful conceits for like how you would have someone speaking and it's just a leap of it's just a simple leap of lo logic or, it's just that suspension of disbelief. It's yeah, it is the same person, but actually one's a time traveler, or actually one's her reflection or, yeah. It's just that simple kind of thing.
There are so many, especially with video, there are so many cues and so many things that uh, moving parts is one reason i, I guess I do podcasting rather than videos. And so many chances to stumble and, and, and hit your head on the uncanny valley. Um, you know, Especially when you are, you are sort of making, making these videos and having those kinds of conversations with yourself and trying to set these things up. Because It's like I used to listen to um, the Nerdist podcast, and one of the things that I remember people saying is like talking about films, it's a wonder, anything gets made. It's a, it's a wonder, anything goes out because of the amount of things that have to be right for something to work. The amount of the different pieces, not even talking about the quality, but just all these weird little pieces, cuz it's so often that we can just look at something and go, Nope, that hasn't quite worked.
And it's like, how do you just make it and hope or are you like looking for things and, and sort of analyzing and thinking that doesn't quite get? Because it, it feels to me very hard to notice that in your own work, and then suddenly it goes out and you go, I dunno why, but that joke didn't land or whatever.
Yeah. I suppose there's always things, just in, in terms of actual practical process. So when I was doing this of committed myself to, I'm gonna make a video a week. So there's just something about the momentum of it needs to go out, whatever is, is, you know, and actually I'm gonna learn more from putting stuff out regularly, then I am trying to perfect this one thing. So there's something about that and just accepting that it's not gonna be perfect and there's gonna be a gap or whatever. But then in terms of the, you know, making that video okay, where there's, there's me having a conversation with myself, like how to make it Whole and sort of coherent, like the way I think about it. And it's quite a SIM, oh, I realize it's quite a simple setup. You've got this, you know, the creative helpline person who's really grounded and has got a particular point of view, which is quite evolved and calming and they're there to help. And then you've got this other person who's the sort of manifestation of an untamed emotional response to some situation, whether it's paranoia or sort of, productive mania or something, and they have a problem and it's as a one act story, it's they're gonna cut phone up, and then how is that going to be resolved? Recognizing that it's uh, what you think, it's that whole the storytelling thing. Of what a character wants versus what a character needs. They think they want something, but actually they, what they really need is something else. And there's something kind of fun in the concept that they miss the point completely by the end of it. I think that's part of the gag.
So there's all, there's already that, that that's sort of, um, container, I guess, in terms of a to B, and then what's the journey. And I think. In terms of the actual process, my, my thought was okay. The person who's phoning up. Is driving the scene, they're the one who is instigating it. So that's, the performance has to come first because they're pursuing something. So that is what I do first. And cause that's the, that's the charge, right? That's the emotional thing that's driving it through.
I have a bullet point script of oh, the they'll present the symptoms it'll be diagnosed by the person, then they'll explore a solution and you know, then they'll miss a point completely. It's roughly that. So yeah, with that sort of structure in mind and the sort of the emotional drive of the person calling in being the sort of first performance, then, yeah, record that and think, you know, emotionally, no, you know, it's, it's really good, such a fun invitation to play at home on my own in my flat when my girlfriend's out to to go, alright, what's the most paranoid thing I could do or, what would you know, that kind of thing?
And then watching that performance back in order to sort of go, oh, okay. Well would be an interesting way to react to what came up there. It's structured, but it's also like trying to find a way to riff off the thing you just did half an hour ago.
And in terms of like, you know, you mentioned like the Ear phone props and stuff like that. It's kind of, I suppose it's like theater, right? Or doing like fringe or very stripped back theater. It's no, you've got two chairs and two actors. And you can afford, you know, one prop, what's the prop, what's the thing that's going to say, oh, this is this. So there's something about an economy of um, your decisions going, have you only got one thing, what sells the idea that they're, I dunno, trying to get fit at the same time while it's a dumbbell? I'm sorry. I've got one of those in the, you know, that, you know, so yeah, there's that thing.
I'm, I'm trying to sort of find things that are when I talk about process things that are things we can pass down, but there's some stuff there that is much harder to teach. And I say that actually, and I wonder if it's something you can or do teach about timing and about the actual, the art that goes into this stuff as well? If I think about some of those aspects of the conversation, there's performative elements, but then also, you know, you're going on this run in the imposter syndrome video, god, I sound like a weird, crazy fanboy, but you know, we'll have to just get over that, and just move past it. You go going through this run of different people's names and you, the person uh, the helpline helper is sort of just reacting to each one, say, yes, they've got it. Yes they've got. That sort of, that, that rhythm has to, I just, I guess, just come from years of experience and years of writing. Is there stuff around that, that in your coaching that you help with, or I guess a better question, perhaps I could cut all of that question down to much simpler one is, tell me about your creative coaching practice.
Oh, God. Um, God well, um, yeah, that's interesting. That's, I suppose the, what is that? How to craft a story, maybe that's sort of part of it, I think some of the principles of how to shape a story. Track over from live performance, into editing. Cause you're making the same decisions really. It's like, you know, what are the rhythms here? Is this sort of a is this like really lyrical or is it like really frenetic and staccato and how do you change? Cause that's part of the dynamics of a story. Isn't it? If it was all just sort of unspooling gently all the time you get bored, you need to go on a I'm doing a. sound wave slash rollercoaster, wavy hand shape, there's gotta be a dynamic range. It's the same with music. The buildup, the breakdown and all of that. So there's that part of it.
And there's also this thing of we're all such well trained. consumers of media, whatever your thing is, if it is visual, narrative media, like television or it's podcasts and stuff, or if it's music. And I think the simple measure of is this keeping my attention? I think that's a really good place to start, you know, am I getting bored? Because if I'm getting bored, chances are someone else is.
So there's certainly, for me, there's a thing of oh, onto the next thing. Let's change it up and uh, trying to anticipate this is what people might expect next and just sort of undercutting that slightly.
And do I coach around that? No, I don't. Maybe I should mark. Maybe I should develop a product. Uh, um, I mean, I suppose my coaching practice, I've kind um, to date, I've worked with writers, some visual artists and performers. So I think people who are dealing with narrative and are trying to create an, a narrative in some way. The people I work with have a need to want to create something that feels a little bit out of reach in some way, that their practice is stalled or it doesn't feel alive to them in the same way anymore, or they have a feeling I need to do something with this, but I can't give it some form. And sometimes then what we might work on together is developing a narrative and an idea and finding that and rooting that in what they're interested to explore and say, and that might, it could draw on some of what I can bring in terms of uh, writing and creating story, and has done in the past but not all the time. Sometimes it's, it's more about the practice of. What I'm actually as a creative showing up to do and how am I step by step realizing the thing that I want to do? And how am I doing that in a way that's congruent with what matters to me and the context that my creativity is sitting in my life? Um, and my own measure of what success is and what I want to be learning. And that whole sort of thriving as a creative and a person.
So this is Paul. And, uh, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, what, what is some of this weird process stuff you're talking about? It is definitely worth checking out there the videos that linked in the show notes, just because, I was fascinated having watched them, like I talked about in the interview, uh, or there Ian in our discussion. This thing about justifying a scene and, and I think if we'd have had longer, you know, we might have dug even, even deeper into it, but it's, it's one of those things where I think, sometimes it's a bit of my brain that perhaps gets fascinated by a thing that other people are just like, I dunno, I just did this thing because it made sense.
Um, but it comes off the back of seeing. You know, lots of people are trying to do these kinds of marketing videos. Right? Lots of people are trying to do fun, interesting, quirky, memorable videos to in some way, tell the world. I've got some stuff going on and I can help you. Right. It's not necessarily sales in that, in that sense, but it is about saying I know a few things and, and I can, I can help. And, you know, I talked about appreciating the, the subtlety of that message, but also there, there's certain care taken to justify the world that he creates that yes, it sounds like overanalyze, uh, over analysis, right? But it's the kind of stuff that actually allows you to connect with the material, rather than it just be something that you scroll past and give a, an aimless, like to. It's the kind of stuff you actually engage with and the actually sparks interesting and perhaps worthwhile conversation. So that's why I kind of, I'm belaboring potentially this point about making, if you're, if you're doing something a bit more creative and a bit more fun and a bit more performative, justifying the decisions you make. So that if, for example, you've got two people speaking to each other and you're playing both parts that you understand that they're either in the same place. Uh, or if they're not, then you can understand how they're communicating to each other. That's really that's the thing. And so, again, uh, I'll, I'll leave it there because I'm sure you get the point by now, but I find it fascinating, that kind of stuff. Uh, because there's so much uncanny valley in there. So that's, that's that.
Listen. Uh, we've got still more conversation with Paul to get to. Um, so we'll, we'll talk about that, uh, in, in just a tick. Um, if you want more episodes of Ear Brain Heart, you can find them all at Ear Brain Heart dot com. Uh, if you want to get in touch with me, I am somewhat as we talk a little bit at the end of my discussion today with Paul, in somewhat of transition at the moment. Um, the brand the, that I was operating under previously as is now being sunsetted. And, uh, I'm now sort of I'm, I'm no longer a man in search of a brand. I'm actually just being myself and trying to communicate as myself and let that be the thing.
Um, So while I'm still producing podcasts for people. And that's what I do, uh, I'm also, uh, some sitting somewhere between the work that Paul does and the one that, uh, a chap called Josh Specter does, um, around helping specifically digital creatives with that squishy stuff that I talked about. So we'll get more into that in, in upcoming episodes. So that we've got, uh, we've got a few coming up. We've got next week is Sophie Turton, who runs a company called the Joyful and, and that was a fantastic conversation, uh, so I look forward to you hearing that. If you do want to subscribe, if you want to get future episodes, if you are not already following the podcast, then again, you'll find all the details at Ear Brain Heart dot com.
Okay then. So let us head back into our discussion with Paul. We talked a little bit more about his show, My Heart is a Spark, but also specifically about collaborating in his case with the director.
the show is an interesting thing. It felt new and exciting and challenging to me because it was overtly autobiographical in a way that other things I've made. Aren't. And also it was a story that necessarily would have to be performed by me. It's not something I could give to someone else to perform, or it didn't feel right to do that. And that's what excited me about it. And the third part of what was exciting to me about developing the idea is like I wanted to move away in terms of my writing practice, from conceiving and developing an idea at the keyboard, sat down, head to keys and I wanted to involve cuz it's performance, more of an embodied thing. I wanted to find other ways of ideating and finding ideas. I really wanna sort of liberate myself to feel like I've got the, the, run of some space in a workshop to, it's not just about me at a writing desk.
That was all good. So my, my vision was okay, brilliant. I'll find a collaborator. I'll get into a room with them. It'll be really emergent and we'll find stuff. Lockdown happened, it's just me on my own in my flat So that kind of derailed my hopes for that at least initially. And I managed to find people I could work with online in terms of like a dramaturg to shape the story, but also like for myself, like I was like, if it's just me on my own I'll do the stuff, I'll talk to myself, I'll perform, I'll draw on the walls, I'll listen to music, I'll do all that stuff in the room to help me find the ideas. That by the end lockdown is netted a script. So the story was there and I guess what I knew I needed from a director is someone who could safely hold the space for me to find the performance of it and shape it. Someone because, of the sort of sensitivity around some of the material, it's like I need to trust this person. So that was something I was looking for. And then also the show features lots of audience participation. So I wanted someone who got that and could, again, how do we safely take people on this journey and bring them into that in a way that sort of honors their contribution? And creates a real sort of sense of connection over the course of the of, of the show.
I mean, one of the gifts of lockdown was all the Zoom networking that was happening. so, uh, and, and I that's where I ran into um, uh, Laura Mubridge who is a theater maker and a director outside eye. She works with people. Principally people who develop autobiographical theater to create their show, you know, really. And she's so good at making that safe and fun and enjoyable. And I just, soon as we got talking, it was like I've got this thing, and it, I could imagine that just being in the room with her doing, you know, working on it would be fun. As she, as she recounts it, she thought that I was too cool to work for her to work with. And I thought she was too cool for me to work with and it turned out neither of us were too cool.
So I did a few sort of scratch performances, so like work in progress, sharings and stuff like that, and try to learn from that. The show has that sort of audience participation bit, and there's also a conceit in the show where I have, it's riffing on the same thing as some of the YouTube stuff where I play other characters, but it's as audio that I, and so I have that I trigger myself as part of the performance and I'm interacting with that.
That's gotta be hard. I've seen that when it goes wrong. Um, sorry, cuz again, I'm obsessed with the process years. Sorry. I have to tell you this. Years years and years ago, there was like an anti-drugs thing, like a theater group came to our school and they did their piece on, on, drug drugs is bad. And they did a segment where it was someone sat at a desk and they were obviously doing a radio show, and they had the other call on, probably would've been cassette at that point. And the person on stage wildly misjudged the gap where they had to speak. And so there was just about 10 seconds of absolute silence or he'd finished speaking. Yeah. And then the, the call came in and it's just, ah, it's it, when it works, it's beautiful and it's seamless, but it's just, ah, such a shame when it doesn't.
I know it is it is that high wire rat. Yeah. That big of yeah. Cause when it really works, it feels like, oh, they're hearing the words for the first time and that's like a, you know yes. But if it's not, it just, but it's really interesting challenge. And also it's this thing of it does go back to the YouTube thing and, or one thing that you're creating, I suppose, where you are the sole voice or you the so creator, you know, there are all kinds of, conce and ways of bringing in other perspectives.
And I think that's for example, going maybe full circle background to those YouTube things is like what a great way to liberate yourself to. Show up for two sides of an idea. You're not like having to walk some middle ground, you can fully occupy that dimension and that dimension, and really commit to those. And I think that is a demonstration. It's that empathy thing. It's oh, it's like this. And it's also like this at the same time. And that's what we dealing with. And I think there's Yeah. It's fun. Cause we all, all occupy those extremes around how we think about certain things or feel about certain things. Don't we oscillate wildly all these different things. I think it's just a tourism of what that internal experience is like maybe
So what is next for Paul?
uh, uh, I dunno. Um, well, This is interesting and, you know, it's kind of, um, it's, it's lovely to be up in this chat with you you today. Cause I feel like it's a bit of a, I dunno if it's a pause or a big end of one phase, beginning of a new phase. Lots of things. I mean, definitely going back to the YouTube thing in a new way, and I've now got more time for coaching. So I'm looking to sort of connect with people around that. So that's going to be giving getting a bit of my attention. The response to the show's been really good, and I want to find the next step for that. And there's a few things floating around. Definitely go to do some other dates and explore some options. Maybe it's. A rural touring thing or something. But yeah, so having a conversation with Laura over the next few weeks about what that is. And I've also got a novel that I'm working on, want to develop this sort of really been on the back burner for a long time. So revisiting that at some point. But yeah, I'm feeling quite inspired actually um, quite sort of inspired. I am feeling inspired. I, okay. I'm feeling inspired mark.