If you’re trying to sell a product that warrants consideration, jumping to the sale too quickly is more likely to result in failure than success. Frances Khalastchi, co-founder of Better Bolder Braver, explains in this episode how we can use the journey of consciousness to guide prospective clients and customers to a purchasing decision, using empathy.
Along with Simon Batchelar, Frances works with coaches to help them reframe their attitudes to marketing, and position themselves as the guide in customers’ stories, not the hero.
Some things to consider
- You don’t have to be in service of everyone all the time, at the expense of your own wellbeing.
- Business can benefit from more ethical and empathy-driven approaches to marketing, rather than relying on charm pricing or artificial deadlines.
- Prospective customers and clients go on a journey from problem-unaware to most-aware, and you can create empathetic content that meets them at different parts of that journey.
Check out my new newsletter, a love letter to your own creativity. Sign up at Steadman.land.
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I was about to go. That sounds horrendous, but actually I'm okay with that.
Welcome to Ear, Brain, Heart, and experiment in showing up. I'm Mark Steadman. And I'm trying to figure out what marketing looks like when you have a mission and a dash of curiosity.
I used to run one of the podcasting industries, most feature competitive products. And if that sounds like fluff or jargon, that's probably why I got out of that in the spring of 21, so that I could have a small hand in podcasts, stories of success.
Last week I chatted with Simon bachelor, one half of Better Bolder Braver. And if Simon is the one who brings the what and the, how this week's guest Frances Khalastchi brings the who and the why. She is of course the other half of the Better Bolder Braver community where coaches go to feel less icky about their marketing. More able to put themselves out there and show up without burning out.
It wasn't a thing that I dreamed up on my own. In fact, it was given to me by someone who I was on a group coaching call with, who was witnessing me trying to help a number of coaches, people who were becoming coaches to help them feel more confident about putting themselves out there and helping people.
And Rich said, I don't understand why aren't you helping coaches with their marketing? And I was like, what? I'd never thought I'd never considered coach. And I was very much okay with the idea of kissing goodbye to marketing after 20 years. But something happened in that moment and I just fell in love with the idea. And that's been what I've been just absolutely motivated by for the last I'd say yeah, nearly a year and a half. Wasn't really my idea. But it, it was the sum of many small parts, not least having worked in a world of other people, helpers. So I've worked in international development. I've worked in the arts, I've worked in government, I've worked in the corporate sector and I've met many people along the way. I've worked in social enterprise. So I've met lots of people who are trying to do stuff for other people. And a lot of the jobs I took about the squiggly career as many of us probably do and that none of it made any sense at all, that the transition from one role didn't necessarily make any sense in relation to the last one. And then now everything makes perfect sense in retrospect. And so all the experiences that I've accrued in sort of helping with communication, a number of people who are trying to help other people do stuff all makes perfect sense. And I've landed with an audience or a community of people who I'm very compelled to try to help.
So everything I'm doing in terms of all the stuff I'm putting out there to let people know that I exist and all the work I'm trying to do to help them talk about how they can be more confident about what they're doing to help others is kind of in spirit of a sort of big system change agent of change thing that really turns me on.
Have you ever wanted to be, or do you want to be in the spotlight on stage if you like versus the person in the wings?
Yeah. And you know, I'm thinking about. When I was when I was at school, I did theater studies and night, four of my best friends w now we're in my third studies class when I was 18, 17, 18, and they always ended up getting the better roles because they were amazing on stage. And I either didn't get as sort of prominent a role or I was doing something backstage, but I definitely remember feeling a bit sort of disgruntled about not being the main character. And at the same time was very pleased that I wasn't having to learn all of the lines that the main characters were having to learn.
And in the end, it was quite funny because I got an, a for third studies high level, which I was quite surprised with. And the reason I got the mark was based on a, a deconstruction of a show that we went to and I kind of picked it apart and the production of it and, you know, all of the facets of it. And I got a really good mark for it, and it helped me to get an a. And so I think even though I thought I wanted to be the main part and everything, and that was going to be my zone of genius, in fact, it was kind of taking apart the drama and seeing what was going on from behind the scenes and the sort of 360 evaluation of the quality of it. And again, that kind of speaks to the sort of system change quality of a production that actually, I think turns me on and sort of just being in the middle of the stage.
The reason I asked is I had, I guess, something of an epiphany or just a moment almost exactly two years ago, if not exactly two years ago in a park where at the time I was doing a podcast where I was spending time with the listener everyday, just to keep the listener company um, because we were all in isolation and this all felt very new and uh, this felt like something I could do. And I sat at this park bench looking out at this sort of muddy pond with ducks floating over the top and, and I think I sat on, I recorded some just bird song and sound of the park. And in the end, I just thought, no, I like, no one else gets this time. I just me. I, you know, this is just for me. And what that ended up later trans transforming into is a change from wanting to be center stage, that sense of cloying need to the need for recognition or the need to be noticed for it was beginning to feel more at odds and what was so much more satisfying was the idea of being able to serve and the idea of being able to help the help other people find their spotlight and find their moments. And that felt really sort of rich and enriching. And I, yeah I got a sense that maybe that was not an unfamiliar journey maybe to yourself?
Yeah. Yeah. I hear where you're going with this. I mean, you know, that I love a cheerlead, I think. Yeah. I've got to the point of um, as much enjoying seeing other people doing incredibly well as I do revel in my own sort of sense of satisfaction. And I very much also, so I do like feeling like I'm doing something well, but I'm far less motivated by what everyone else is saying.
And more by my own sense of the sort of success of what I'm doing and how it aligned with what feels good to me. So I'm not, I'm not in service of everyone all the time at at the detriment or But yeah expense of myself. Exactly. You know, my, myself and my sense of importance is, you know, very much part of what I'm motivated by, but it's not because I want to be recognized or seen by other people, in a certain way. It's just from a sustainability point of view, just how can I survive? I need to feel like what I'm doing is worth something.
And that also is why I'm an entrepreneur now, which is something I never thought I was going to be. I thought I needed to exist within the safety of the corporate structure. And I, for several years, worked in the city and, you know, had a pension and salary and, you know, all of those things that made me what I thought made me feel really safe. And actually I haven't been as happy as I have been in the last year and a half doing something, which is on the one hand, incredibly unstable, but you know, very much feels like it makes sense for me and my you know, a sustainable practice, but it's yes. In service of others. That make sense. So I do relate to what you're saying, and I do think we have similar stories.
We're all about how marketing doesn't need to feel toxic. You know, we kind of look closely at what we would say is better marketing uh, you know, to call it completely ethical might not be ethical because is anything completely ethical, you know, and who's to judge, but we aspire to ethical good marketing, human centered, empathetic marketing. It gives people the opportunity to celebrate what it is that they're doing and understanding that it's a gift to others. And instead of feeling like they're coming at talking about their service from a place of shame, instead to understand that. Guide for others as opposed to the hero of the story and that they have something of great value that they need to give, you know, that's their obligation in the universe to give.
And so when you are able to pivot as a people, help her from a place of feeling slightly uncomfortable about having to sell something or fundraise, or just generally pitch yourself and your ideas to somebody who is appreciating that your, you know, within a bigger picture of change, great important change, and that, you know, it's your it's your role in, in the world and your responsibility to yourself to stand up and do something about something, then I feel that marketing and sort of putting services out there becomes quite a different experience.
And to, you know, to see people on that journey and see people, who've got something of great value to offer, go from feeling quite a key and sort of uncomfortable to being confident that what they're doing is not only okay, but absolutely what they should do and talking about it from that perspective with pride, confidence, and joy really does excite me. And I feel like I'm a, I'm also an agent of change and facilitating that. So, yeah. And I get excited to talk about it as you can probably tell
I love that. I think it's possibly worth getting into why, and I don't think this is unique to coaches, but why it's important for coaches to. Think about the ethics in marketing, as opposed to the sort of numbers scale based by some ads in Facebook and you know, or use other sales tactics and why that's important for coaches. Because I suspect there are other businesses who would benefit from learning that there are other options available and it's also important to be able to look at other marketing certainly tactics, but approaches, I guess.
Yeah. So rather than people feeling that they're having to subscribed to a code of ethics, which can feel quite heavy. I think it's interesting for people to consider that they can actually employ their own skills in what they're doing in their marketing, not only so that they feel there's a a continuation of their sort of day to day Life.
And then not like having to flip between doing their thing and then doing something that's like completely in-congruent just for the sake of smoothness, but also how it makes perfect sense to, for example, take a coaching approach to marketing, because then people get to see who you are and feel how you are and experience what it is to work with you and the way that you're putting yourself out there.
So if you're employing a load of stuff that yes, arguably is abusive or takes advantage of people's sort of anxieties and sort of vulnerabilities, apart from it in the house is about how that just won't feel right to you and is completely in-congruent in the spirit of what else you're trying to do. So, there's a nuance there because obviously if you're in the business of being a coach, or if you're in the business of social enterprise, you probably are wanting not to do anything that is unethical. But of course there are people trying to do things on the one hand and perfectly happy to employ things on the other hand, that don't seem to make sense in connection with each other.
Coaches tend to be people who want to help in the world. So it makes sense for them to kind of act within a bigger system. Something that feels ethical and good, but also is kind of very much in the spirit of the way in which they approach their work. And we help people by, for example, asking them to think about what coaching questions they liked to think about asking as part of their marketing.
And the other thing that I think it's worth mentioning is the concept of the hero and the guide. If I haven't just mentioned that five minutes ago, but it's this thing of, you know, your story and then what, your, the way that you are framing what's happened to you and how you've got there, and the ideas that you've had that have created the services that you're offering is about you being able to connect with your listener or your reader, or yur watcher. You want to not be the hero, but rather offer to them an opportunity to see how you'd be an excellent guide, and that you're not that far ahead on the journey of self discovery or change making, enough that they feel that they are, you know, having to start from a very difficult place and have no sense of whether or not they might be able to meet forward. It's your job as the storyteller to help people feel like with your support, they can actually make steps forward and that they're realistic and possible and exciting. And at the same time, not over promise, under deliver and leave someone feeling cold, lost, and alone.
And so, you know, it starts making you less sort of navel gazing and obsessed with how you want to show up and just sell stuff to people which then fosters a sense of discomfort and imposter syndrome. But instead you're you know, you're continually thinking about the people that you're trying to serve and what story you can offer them. That will be helpful to them in terms of their own journey and, you know, self work, and holding a mirror up to yourself, as we say means that you can then create a sense of safety for yourself to tell your own story.
People who are trying to create change in the world and help people will have been on a journey themselves and there's work to be done and boundaries to be created so that you can tell a story that means that and keep telling a story and not feel like you're burning out or being triggered constantly. And that means you can continue to serve and continue to relate. And I think th these are all things that come out can come out so beautifully in a podcast and in conversation with people as I'm doing with you now and telling you about my own life, but I'm creating boundaries enough that I'm not vomming all my proverbial um, I'm kind of trying to give you enough of a sense of why, what I've been through might be of interest to those, trying to do something similar, trying to serve.
That last point about boundaries and things puts me might have something that happened exactly today in which a mutual friend of ours was very kind, was kind enough to record what we might call a pre testimonial, which I thought might be a nice idea of something to do. Which is a video talking about the program that is upcoming and why they're looking forward to it.
good. You're a genius. Okay. I'm literally stealing the shit out of that.
Yeah. I thought you might, I thought you might enjoy that.
Yeah. I love it.
And what came out was a remarkable and I had to check with our friends to be like, you've shared. And this is kind of ties into this idea of tension, but from a different idea. So I wanted to explore the idea of tension. But this in me created a tension of like, you're telling this incredibly emotive personal story, and this is to not to put too fine, a point on it marketing for the, for a course that I'm, you know, a program that I'm selling.
Where I can square that circle if you like, is that I, the things that she's saying are congruent with the benefits of the program, you know, we I do talk about being able to access your voice and find your voice and speak out and speak up and and deal with the questions of, does anyone want to hear what I have to say? Does anyone care? Do I have anything to say and all those things and like this sort of pre testimonial addresses though, is, but there is also that tension of you've, you've opened yourself up here and being vulnerable. I don't want to take advantage of that.
It's interesting. Cause I don't feel like first of all, I thank you so much. I think the idea of like gifting to somebody that you've asked onto your podcast, the opportunity to share with your listeners why are you here is such a great gift. And we talk about this in relation to a Testament like normal testimonials. Like if somebody right. And we were getting this quite a lot at the moment, people are just like randomly writing us the nicest stuff. And being able to go. This is amazing. I care what you think. Can I share it? Is that okay? Cause I, like, I obviously feel amazing because you've said this about what we're doing, but I really want you to know that you saying it as a community member is like super valuable. And saying that to someone makes them feel really seen and heard and appreciated.
So anyone's struggling with inviting a testimonial needs to, you know, feel fine about saying to someone I really care about what you like, you really matter to me. And I want to celebrate what you say out loud. That's such a lovely gift. Like there's nothing I'd like more than the opportunity, which you've just given me to tell people why, what you're doing is so important. And I feel a real sense of excitement and energy as you know, as I'm about to do this because as a gift that you've given me. And it's such a brilliant idea, like why are you here wanting to help me promote this program that I'm putting out and you know, really wanting to help people with.
So, yeah, I mean, we've taught lots of you and I about what it is to be an agent of change, someone in, you know, a social entrepreneur, somebody who works for a cause that they love and you know, to get really clear on your own sort of sense of existence in the world through conversation is so valuable and the intimacy of a podcast that is not you standing on a stage and having to read from a script and present a presentation to hundreds of people, the intimacy, that means you can offer generously to people, your opinion about something without it being all about you and actually learning so much about yourself in the process is just super valuable.
I think, especially on the vulnerability aspect, having worked with someone that I am greatly privileged to work with over the last few weeks, because they've taught me so much about so I started my life in tech was always fascinated with radio, moved from tech, into podcast tech, and then from podcast tech into sort of podcast education. And what we might now call coaching podcast coaching and the privilege to work with someone lately who has benefited from the sort of the that, that safety net and that, that support doesn't mitigate the vulnerability that they still feel because there is it's one thing to be a guest on a podcast. It's quite another to make something yourself and show that and present it to the cloud and let the cloud judge it and say, it's this what you want? Um, because there is. So often this idea that the cloud is going to much like God in, in the holy grail, multipathing holy grail film, just the clouds were part and this animated Godhead will come out. and shout at you and tell you to stop averting your eyes, because it's pathetic. This you can throw your, your stuff up to the cloud and the cloud can look disdainfully on it or ignore it, or whatever. That vulnerability, I don't know when that goes away, and I think it's different for different people. But it's, yeah it's just, it's I think it's worth addressing that. Like it w your mileage may vary on that stuff. And what I love and what I get to see is people expose their soft underbelly, and then it gets tickled, and, And actually be brave enough to do that. And that's the point like it's the fact that they know how scary that is. They know how how terrifying it is to offer your thing up to the cloud and for it to be judged. And yet they do it and they do it every week or every two weeks.
And that's the, like you were talking about the cheerleading aspect, like there is, to me, I feel so great when I see when I log in and I see like, someone's put these episodes together and it's like, they made that all by themselves. I had no hand in the, in, in making that I, you know, I did second, third hand, you know, I helped them get to that point, but like, I didn't do any of the editing here. I didn't go file new save on this project. They did that. And. It's so it's such an amazing feeling. It's just like why doesn't everybody do this?
I think you have to get, perhaps you have to get to a certain point and whether it's in your career or whether it's age or whether it's going through certain life experiences where you care less about protecting your own skillset and start to want to educate others so that they can do what you do, because you have enough confidence to know that actually the, your USP is not that you make a particular widget. It's the fact that only you can make the widget in this particular way. And you can teach people how to make, you know, Penn and Teller. I love Penn and Teller. I find them endlessly entertaining. And they're constantly showing people how tricks are done. And it's like, yeah, we can show you how it's done and you could learn the trick, but you here, you're not going to do it like us. You can't pull it off. You can't do a Penn and Teller trick. You can do a trick and we can teach you how to do that trick this, this illusion, but you ain't going to be Penn and Teller.
There's nothing like getting to a point in your life where, you know, and you can't really do anything about it. You can't aspire to sort of achieve it. You've got to just wait for it. And you don't know it's even a thing until you get there. Whereas you say you pivot from trying to be skilled to understanding that you are somebody and the only person that can do the things that you do in the way that you do them. And you know, the skidders, then being able to see how you are standing out and to listen into what you care about. And then the equation is that you care, plus you stand out because, you know, and it equals, this makes sense for you to be part of.
And that's why we talk about empathy or authority journey. And in telling your story, what you want to show is an empathy for where someone else is, show your authority, what it is that you've experienced and why you're now in a position to help, and then take people on the journey of what working with you would look like.
Do you want to take us briefly through that, through that journey? Cause I always enjoy hearing it. And I enjoy hearing you talk about it and I think it would be valuable for us to get a bit of a primer into that, into the sort of the marketing journey,
I think, you know, we talk about magic beans and there are coaches out there and it's all about them. And they'll sell you as Simon has probably told you a million times, you know, a course for 997.. You've got to sign up by tomorrow. Here's the countdown. And the course ends up being them, talking about how they've made millions selling courses and it Simon calls it magic beans, and you don't really get anywhere you don't, but the people are so enticed by this. But then when they hear it, as you say, the testimonial of someone that has really enjoyed working with them or their transformation it's more compelling because you, and you didn't think that was what you needed to hear, but as soon as you hear it, you know, that that is what you needed to hear.
And we talk about the journey of consciousness which is going from unaware to very aware of a thing that you need to do. And we talked to people about how it's important to consider that they're talking to people at various points in the journey of consciousness at different levels of awareness.
So, you know, and it requires care and compassion and kindness. If you're speaking to someone who's quite unaware of what they, the work they need to do, then you describing your method, you describing what you are packaging up and selling is not necessarily going to be of any interest to them. Cause they don't know that they want it or need it.
So this is Frances, and a real pleasure to sit down and have a conversation, with her that was fairly sort of unstructured. It's nice when you know someone a little bit, you know, I don't know Frances super well, but I've, you know, we've spoken, uh, plenty of times. And, um, you know, we've, we've collaborated and she's been hugely supportive, uh, of, of my work as has Simon. Um, But it's really nice when you sort of know someone's rhythm to be able to jump on a call and say, I've kind of got an idea of where I want to go. I don't have a load of questions that we must work through. Uh, and that's one of the things that I find really fun about this kind of podcasting. So, uh, there are more conversations like this to be had. If you subscribe to the show or follow it, uh, you can do that at earbrainheart.com, or search your phone uh, for Ear Brain Heart, and you'll find new episodes out every week.
Uh, next week, I am speaking to Matthew Bellringer. And that was a conversation that started sort of in one direction. And went all over the shop, uh, and it's, it's all around neurodiversity within how we show up and cause I, I kind of want it to come with the question of like, as someone who identifies as neurodiverse, how can I show up and also look after myself.? And so as this is an experiment and showing up, I thought that would be a really interesting conversation, but it went in lots of different directions and Matthew's a fascinating person to speak to. So I hope you'll enjoy that.
While you're over at Ear Brain, Heart dot com also consider throwing us a subscribe to the newsletter, uh, because this whole project is under the umbrella of my podcasting school for social entrepreneurs, which is called Podcode. Uh, so if you check out uh, the website for the podcast that you will also at the bottom of the page, find a form where you can pop in your email address and I'll be in touch, uh, sort of every Thursday with just a super short to the point email, with a bunch of useful links to help you use your voice to create impact and change in the world. And there's lots of other ways that, uh, if you want to work with me on some stuff, we can have that conversation. So yeah. Check out the newsletter and it's all at earbrainheart.com.
So back to my conversation with Frances, then we got into the idea of the journey of consciousness, which is how. We can hold people's hand from being as Frances will describe completely unaware of uh, a solution to a problem, or even unaware of the problem itself to thoroughly completely aware of the problem and ready to buy.
And we kind of talked around the idea of the Enneagram as a product that you might sell, a service that you might have. And how can you communicate to someone who doesn't know what the Enneagram is, which is a, uh, sophisticated personality. Uh, breakdown in a way of helping you understand yourself and your relationships to other people. If you're having problems in your life that you can't identify, the Enneagram might help you find aspects where you are having difficulty in your relationships with other people or how you shop for yourself. And so how can you communicate to someone that the Enneagram might be the right thing and that you can deliver? A program that uses it, if they don't know what it is. And don't even realize that perhaps there are problems in their life that the Enneagram might help them address.
The different levels of awareness that we talk about are unaware, problem aware, solution aware, product aware, and most aware.
So most of where is the easy place to start. Somebody is super aware of what they want to do, the work they want to do what their problems really are. And they already know what the method is, ie Enneagram, They know that you practice it and they know that the reason why they should work with you is because of X, Y, and Z, and they're ready to buy. And all you need to do is get out of their way. So they're the easiest people to speak to.
And then people just down from that product aware are, you know, at that point where it's nice, really nice place to talk to people because they're, you're in the getting to know them and they're getting to know you stage. And you as much as anything else they're working out of, these are the people that you want to work with.
So solution to, whereas when people are like, Ooh, Enneagram, that sounds fascinating. That's when they get to that bit.
Problem aware, they may just be coming to terms with what the real problem is, which is what you're talking about, which is that they find themselves clashing in relationships.
But the unaware bit is before they've even acknowledged that what they do is clash in relationships, and they might be feeling really tired. They've got really bad back. They keep
the miserable at work,
Miserable at work like relationships end quickly. Uh, they can't find they've got a real sense of, or they don't even, they're just completely unconscious of necessarily there being anything wrong. And yet they
all they think they're mean they don't realize that, you know, there's things. They think they're a bad person, you know?
Yeah. They just hate themselves. Exactly. No, I mean, you know, but it's like, even just you being able to serve to them, the realization that they find themselves in conflict in relationships, and then they're like, oh yeah, thank you. You know? And then it's like, so that I've got this thing, there's a thing called an Enneagram which, you know, just helps you understand yourself a bit better. It's like, wow, that's cool. And then the next bit is I do this and I do this because of this. And I come at this work with this experience, and I'm a really good guide you, because I care about you because you are a social entrepreneur operating in micro financing in a developing community somewhere that, you Know, whatever. Right. So the more specific you can get, someone's like, oh yeah, I can see how you are really relevant for me right now.
Okay. And then it's like, let me get out of your way. Here's my product. Here's how much it costs. Or, you know, let's have a conversation about how much this is worth or like, what is the outcome we're trying to achieve here. But you can see how it's really helpful for people who are putting their services out there to remember that they might not be talking to people who are super aware of the situation that they know very well as a service provider.
I think, you know, when you're going as a social entrepreneur or somebody working in the charity sector to somebody that might be able to support your work it's a case of working out from. Funder or person that you're trying to appeal to, like where are they on the journey of consciousness of what it is that you know you do and what you can provide, because if you need to start with, you know, you're you're a funder who's just started out and has some money that you've kindly ring fence to support projects in poverty around poverty relief.
You know, are you in any way aware of kind of what your niche is, if you like, like who is it specifically that you'd like to support and why, because I'd really like to help you in sort of figuring out if the people that I work with will be of interest to you. And you know, just working through with people who you want to work with, their journey, Instead of just standing there shouting about what you do is people who, you know, might not be ready. You're not meeting them where they are.
When they feel supported by you and sort of, sort of getting a clearer picture. That's great. If they're already clear, great. You know, if they're one of the oldest funders and they know exactly what they're doing and they've got really robust grant application process, then you can go right in there and say, you obviously know what you're talking about. I can see from your form, that what you need is this, here you go. Let me get out of your way. Have you got any questions? Like how, you know, I'm here, we'd love your support.
There's a flip, possibly a flip side to that in, if we look at businesses that have a product to sell, but there is a sort of a deeper purpose or a deeper north star. If you like behind that product. A couple of examples being Humanitix, which is a ticketing platform that is trying to be accessible, especially to I believe the blind community. And then if you look at Dash water, I believe who make water flavored waters out of knobbly, fruit And veggies, the lower grade fruit and veg that is going to waste.
There is something in, and I don't know where it is because I don't have your wisdom and experience here, but there's something along the marketing journey here, the, the journey of awareness around how you sell those kinds of products, because we don't necessarily buy into them because of the social good that they do. We buy them because they're a good product.
So Humanitix, this ticketing platform is trying to be competitive as a good ticketing platform. Yes, it also has this thing, but they want to work with the big guys. They want to work on big events and make sure that they operate so that they're not being bought or applied out of the goodness of people's hearts. People aren't going to necessarily, there will be some people who will buy Dash water because it has this particular tag. But for other people, They're going to buy it because it tastes nice. They don't care that it's, you know, using vege that would otherwise go to waste. They want to use it because maybe it's competitively priced or the price doesn't matter so much, but they know that it just, it tastes really good. And so there is it's a little bit I guess something that I think you both talk about, the sell people, what they want, give them what they need or the
that it is that yes, you got it right.
I'm doing good.
And well done star student. And it's also something I've talked about for many years. Having worked in corporate social responsibility So it's about knowing your audience. And as you say, like you can have many facets to the same products and what you want to do is sell to somebody that gives a about one bit of it, what it is that they would like to know.
And, you know, when you were a social enterprise or a charity, you're having to understand and navigate different audiences quite a lot. There's like a pyramid of funders as a charity that you have to speak to. And at the top, you've got your major donors. And then you've got sort of all like, maybe it's not a pyramid. It might be in terms of numbers. So you might have like one or two major donors or one corporate sponsor in two or three major donors, and then you've got three or four or five chunks and foundations that support you. And then more people who are generously giving smaller amounts more often and for longer. And you all, you know, you're having to speak to all those people about different things.
And certainly with regards to corporates, it's a case of understanding that what they want and need is to kind of have clarity about how you're gonna support by way of uh, you know, giving them something that they can use in their branding for publicity reasons, and also how you can help with them speaking to their people, clients and shareholders and employees about the work that they're doing. And then there's people within the company who are trying to support the people that work in the company by way of amazing experiences. And what can you provide then there's going to be people in hospitality within uh, within the organization events, in marketing departments who would like to know, are you able to offer a space for them to have their Christmas party.
So everyone within the organization is kind of interested in different things and they are all human beings as well. So I'm intentionally painting a bit of a sort of, unpleasant picture of a corporate cause that's what everyone, that's where everyone goes quite quickly. But my reminder is that they are all human beings working in the system. And so it's nice for them also to be reminded that there is some good being done over here. So speaking their language first and then saying, you know, and actually this is really good.
And then of course, you know, as you say to the consumer, this is a great product. It tastes really nice. And the warm and fuzzy bit is that we're doing it really ethically.
And then there's trust and foundations, for example, who might only be interested to support something if it's like a robustly ethical, sustainable thing. And the, and there is, and it tastes amazing. It's like really good because it's, you know, underpinning these, this, you know, it's kind of meeting these sustainability targets, which you have kindly said, you're going to fund products to support and it tastes amazing.
So it's kind of just speaking to different people and showing them that you're meeting them where they are and showing them that you understand. And you've listened back to that listening point and you've read their website and you've spoken to their people. And you're not just blindly sending out applications all over the place with, you know, and you think top and tailing it with their name and yours is going to make all the difference.
And you and I have talked about this taking 10 minutes to bother, to ask some questions, listen to other people, invite someone to have a conversation with you on a podcast so that you can listen to what it is that they care about and then saying to them, okay, you know what I do have this thing might be for you to work together. Awesome.
Without obviously you wanting to, I wouldn't mention any names, but we had a very intimate experience today in our community. And one of our members was talking about a new service that she wanted to offer to her clients. But what came out the wall was a real frustration because of how passionate she was about the work she wanted to do, but also how real her limits were in terms of her obligations to people in her life.
And, you know, it was very emotional for her and she may or may not have had the opportunity in in, in that way to sort of get even clearer than she already is about how important it is that she communicates to people why she's designed something in a certain way. And it speaks to her own limits and capacities and just the gift of that for your customers or for people that want to work in collaboration with you or support your work is, it's just so important that people get to know you uh, so that you can feel like the people are working with you and know who you are and
Absolutely. Well, Frances, I could, I felt like we could do this for another hour. It's just it's a, an entirely enjoyable experience. So thank you very much for for joining me on this little adventure. Where should people go to, to find you and be in touch with you and learn more about the things that you offer?
thank you, mark. The pleasure is all mine. People can find out about me through betterbolderbraver.com, Which is our website and Better bolder Braver can be found in all of the usual places. We talk several times a day, I would say about all these things. So, hopefully we'll find what you're looking for when you get there. But if you if anything has resonated with anyone and they want a bit more information, I'm happy to direct them to something we've put out there that speaks to it. So, thanks again.